cars, go to foreign movies, or watch public television. that is the culture i've got to figure justice scalia sees things through when he talks about same-sex marriage and gay people. it's when he talks about the constitution, when he talks about the law, talks about base human freedom that he crosses into troubling territory. why? because the culture he came up in and it's not everybody's. nor is it required to be everybody's. he sees through those eyes that it adheres to his own culture. in a soit that values liberty and equality you should the law. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris.

financed this thing. this has been going on not just this year but for the last two years. >> leo gerard is at the international conference in geneva today. he tells me the north american unions will unite and fight this tooth and nail with every legislative means at their fingertips. teachers joined the protest in lansing today forcing two michigan offices to close. governor schneider is still blaming labour for focusing -- for forcing him into this position by pushing a proposal

ii last summer. >> i believe into collective bargaining, but this is way over the top. the voters spoke in november and voted down proposals to, but this right to work just continued. it was becoming very divisive. it is on the table, a hot issue. let's show some leadership. i stepped up to say that i think it's a good thing. it's about being pro worker. >> the real story is how this all happened, and if all goes back to the koch brothers. americans for prosperity, the right-wing organization founded by the koch brothers, is one of the big money interests. a sister organization also funded by the coat brothers. they write dozens of proposed legislation for states across the country. michigan to be proposed right to work bills mirror alex lang which practically word for word. the kochs work crushed. good evening. i'm ezra klein. rachel maddow has the night off.

good evening. i'm ezra klein. good evening. i'm ezra klein. good evening. i'm ezra klein. rachel maddow has the night off. we begin tonight with an update on the breaking news in the if these republicans had run on it, they would have never been elected in the first place. billionaires like the koch brothers are doing political payback. they're putting pressure on lawmakers behind closed doors. we need to shed more light on

this, just like voter suppression efforts across the country that backfired. one of their objectives is to completely dismantle the infrastructure on the progressive side. the progressives need to be aware of this. of course, that's the unions. it's their infrastructure. they are right wing groups who are just out there to fight right-to-work and get it passed. one of them is called the west michigan policy forum. and it's funded by some of michigan's biggest republican donors. its chairman is the president of amway. the west michigan policy forum was key to funding the defeat of prop 2 last summer. yet another group, michigan freedom fund, ran ads in support of right-to-work legislation. it also has ties to the family

in michigan. of course, president obama weighed in on this yesterday when he was in the state of michigan. i think the president got right to the heart of the matter and was on point. >> these so-called right-to-work laws don't have anything to do with economics. they have everything to do with politics. giving you the right to work for less money. >> joining me now is a reporter from mother jones magazine. great to have you with us, andy. take us behind the curtain and explain the relationship of the koch brothers and all of these right-to-work organizations that have been pushing this behind the scenes. >> what you see in michigan, behind the scenes as you say, are a number of grassroots groups that have names like americans for prosperity, michigan freedom fund and so forth. they are there to push lawmakers

to pass right-to-work legislation, funded by some of the biggest interests on the conservative side. the koch brothers, we're talking about the prince family, eric prince used to run black water. so you have the largest funders, especially in the midwest and the country backing conservative policies, wanting to cut taxes, wanting to kneecap unions, pouring money into this fight and making sure that in this lame duck session, governor schneider and the republican legislature get this dope, because it's at the top of their to-do list. >> every elected official wants to get re-elected. so this is standard operating procedure to say either put this on the floor or we're going to primary you and we're going to fund the person that we're putting up against you. it's really threatening legislation. >> it is.

not only do they have this incredible arsenal of money behind them, the americans for prosperity type groups, but they can call on their volunteers, their staffers, bus people in from out of the state. and they can protest and organize for the opponents, as well. >> how identical is the a.l.e.c. language we're seeing, especially in michigan? >> it is pretty much the same thing. they have to change the wording a little bit to avoid looking like it was a cut and paste job, but in the -- what they're trying to accomplish, we're looking at the same objective here. >> here's more from governor rick schneider on all of this. >> this is about being pro workers, giving workers the choice. this should encourage unions to be more responsive to workers in terms of saying they need to show a value proposition. i've met a number of people that

said they would like to choose or have the flexibility not to. so in many respects it could be a positive for unions over the longer term. >> so he's been saying this has not been on his agenda, although he's got the talking points down. are they coming from the koch brothers, as well? >> these talking points are the same things that you see from the koch funded americans for prosperity, that you see from the heritage foundation. it's all the same thing around the country. >> i want to get to what their mission is, and that is to get rid of the democratic infrastructure. this issue of dues and who has to pay and who doesn't, a lot of members would not pay their dues if it had not been taken out of their checks. so now obviously they have to come up with a way to make sure dues get paid. but those dues are used in many respects to support proactive issues for workers in the state. is this not just an effort to defund all of that, create confusion in the labor community to weaken them so they can't be legislatively as strong?

>> the conservative side understand that the labor world, labor unions are the pillar of funding for the democratic party. when you defund the labor unions, you defund the democratic party. you can cut income tax, you can have the conservative nirvana that you want. but the labor unions have been a stalwart on the democratic and progressive side. this is an effort to get them out of the picture. >> i think that the automobile loan played such a crucial role in the victory for president obama and what a thorn in the side it was for the romney campaign. they never really knew how to handle it. this is big-time political payback. andy kroll, thanks for your time. coming up, the fight for worker's rights is far from over. stay with us. we're right back.

john boehner wants paul ryan and eric cantor to help keep the tea party from spoiling any fiscal plans. i'm joined with an update from capitol hill. that's coming up. and dick cheney is sticking to his guns and still lying about iraq and afghanistan. find out what he says about the president's handling of the affairs in the middle east. colonel lawrence wilkerson is here to respond. thanks for staying us with

thanks for staying us with on "the ed show." this will probably be a long-term problem for governor schneider. these workers are determined to make sure that their voices are going to be heard. labor organizers across the country and across north america are promising to fight. first, governor schneider is up for re-election. they can go after him that way. he will have to win back workers to get near the statehouse in 2014. there's also something called a

statutory initiative. activists would need to collect signatures to get a new law past. those are long-term strategies, for now. but the lame duck republicans, you have to give them credit, they are succeeding. they lost eight seats in the november election. they knew they had to force this legislation through now. >> why shut people out? why did we do this? because good ideas get debated and bad ones get rammed through with police protection. >> i rise in opposition to this legislation as the wife of an organized police officer. it is because of his union that he's provided a bullet proof vest. it is because of his union, mr. speaker, that you and i feel safe today on the house floor. >> i object to this -- to this legislation proposed legislation. i object to the process in which it is being put before the people. >> those democrats can't stop michigan from becoming the next

right-to-work state. ironically, this year marks the 75th anniversary of the flint sit-down strike when several hundred auto workers forced gm to the table to improve safety standards and working conditions. michigan's united autoworkers stood up to the bosses and national guard for 44 days and the victory changed the uaw from a loose collection of locals to the powerful union it is today. but they are challenged. tonight, michigan is starting the next chapter a long history of fighting for workers' rights. let's bring in senator debbie stabenow. senator, this is a real stuff one to stomach for a lot of workers and middle classers in this state. in the big picture, what does this mean for michigan and the country? >> first of all, ed, it's really outrageous what's happening. as you were talking about, michigan is the home of the middle class in our country.

we're the state that started building things, making automobiles and to find ourselves in this situation is terrible. i want to step back and remind everyone that in 2008 and 2009, when the auto industry was on the brink, it was the uaw and workers coming together working with the companies that agreed to cut their wages in half to save the companies, to take on retiring health care costs, to save the companies. you know, we thought we had turned a corner in michigan. we have been moving forward in a positive way. people working together. and this is taking us way back, huge steps back and the governor and the legislature are going to be held accountable for that. because we've been moving forward. we just won a national battery innovation hub proposal, a competition from the department of energy because we were working together to put in

michigan the new advanced innovation hub. things that we've been doing to make things and grow things and workers and management together. all of that is out the window and it's horrible for our state for people to see and experience this divisiveness. >> all right. do you think right-to-work legislation helps bring jobs to your state? >> no, absolutely not. i mean, the reality is this, if workers vote to have a union and if somebody comes into the workplace, they don't have to join. the governor is wrong when he says that. i think it's important to go to the point to say that the difference is they get the benefits of collective bargaining. the question is do they contribute, not whether or not they get the benefits. so does it help? no. as you pointed out last night, wages and benefits are lower. working conditions are less safe in states where workers don't have a voice at the bargaining

table to collectively bargain. we don't want to raise to this bottom. we want to race to the top. this sets us on a dangerous course of a race to the bottom that will be detrimental and threatens the middle class of the country. >> "the wall street journal" ran this editorial. the headline is "worker liberation in michigan." and the last sentence reads, "right to work breaks this cycle of government-aided monopoly union power from the larger economic good." is it hard to fight this kind of rhetoric? >> it's certainly tough. particularly when it's not accurate. what this does on a practical basis when you benefit by safe working conditions and higher wages and having your pension protected, you're no longer going to have to contribute to collective bargaining and the process that gives you the benefits. that's not fair. that's not the american way. it's a power grab unfortunately

in the purest, most partisan sense and it's very disappointing to see my state in this situation. >> senator, they're going after democratic infrastructure. would you agree with that? this is how they want to win elections, they want to break your back. >> right now, in the face of citizens united, the courts have said unlimited, secret money can be given by corporations now. and on the other side, people that come together to collectively bargain to have a good way of life and be part of the middle class now are going to be able to have the benefits of that without contributing. >> senator, we have seen a number of polls out there saying that the people of michigan don't want this. what is your pulse on this? can you say with conviction tonight that the people of michigan in the majority simply do not want this? >> the people of michigan don't want this.

they don't want the divisiveness. >> do they want the law? >> no, they don't. what they want is balance. they want us to make sure that our companies can be successful and robust and create jobs. they want workers to have a say in the work place and have safe working conditions and know their pensions are protected. people in michigan have a lot of common sense. what we want is balance. in michigan, we're not looking for anybody to get the edge. when somebody uses politics to make sure they get all of it, people back up and go, it's not fair. >> do you think the governor betrayed the people? >> well, i think he said all along he didn't want to be wisconsin, he didn't want to create divisiveness, but that's exactly what he's done. >> senator, thanks for joining us tonight. appreciate your time. next, republicans claim the president isn't offering any spending cuts. the white house is now hitting

back. and the state-run health care exchanges are in jeopardy, thanks to republican governors. coming up, what their obstruction means for your health care. stay tuned.

we are back. talks continue on capitol hill to avoid the fiscal cliff. but where is it all going?

house speaker john boehner went to the floor and spoke about his meeting with president obama for the first time. boehner and the president sat down over the weekend. boehner says the meeting was nice and cordial but went on to attack the president's offer on spending cuts. >> we're still waiting for the white house to identify what spending cuts the president is willing to make as part of the balanced approach that he promised the american people. the longer the white house slow walks this process, the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff. right now the american people have to be scratching their heads and wondering when is the president going to get serious? >> boehner and his far right caucus may find the offer unacceptable, but president obama has put a lot on the table. nancy pelosi hit back at boehner's rhetoric today. >> the fact is, the president

has and democrats agree, to $1.6 trillion cuts. where are the cuts? in bills that you, mr. speaker, have voted for. >> pelosi is lobbying for house republicans to hold a vote on letting tax cuts expire for the wealthiest americans. with house majority leader eric cantor and congressman paul ryan tasked with pushing boehner's plan on the tea party, it's going to be a tough sell. they are part of boehner's strategy team? in the meantime, the white house is hitting back at boehner and the gop tactics. >> a question of whether or not we have specific spending cuts, the answer is we have. i understand they may not agree with all of it. but it exists. >> i'm joined by illinois congresswoman january schakowsky joining us tonight. congresswoman, good to have you with us. >> thanks, ed. >> harry reid now says it's going to be awful hard to reach a deal by christmas. where is this all heading, in

your opinion? >> the republicans are in total disarray. i think john boehner went to the floor today to encourage his -- or to placate his tea party people saying the real answer is in more cuts and the president has to be clear about the cuts, which as you said, and pointed out, that we have been very explicit about that. i think it's going to be very hard for us at the end of the day and the end of the day is december 31, to come up with a final deal. and i think it only gets worse for the republicans. look, they want us to cut medicare and entitlements have to be on the table. as if there is an equivalency between the richest americans paying a bit more and asking senior who make $20,000 a year to pay more. really? >> congresswoman, isn't this a time where liberals in congress have to hold the line? there's rumors going around from medicare age going from 65 to

67, there might be some benefit cuts in here. the fact is, there's a lot of lawmakers on capitol hill that don't know exactly what's being put on the table. there's a lot of trust being put forward by lawmakers supporting president obama. are you confident that there's not going to be a bad deal out there for liberals? >> well, what i'm worried about is that there will be something between raising the age of medicare eligibility or means testing, further means testing medicare. you know, ed, we means test medicare right now. that's a really important point that gets lost. people who make over $85,000 a year pay more already. it's like, you know, arsenic or cyanide, which do you prefer? i don't think we should agree to either one. >> well, cantor and ryan are part of boehner's strategy team. what does that mean? >> i don't know what the heck

that means. it probably means we won't get an agreement. boehner was again talking about the democrats really want business -- small business tax increases and the same old line that he's being fed. and he hasn't put his ideas on the table in a very clear way. >> is boehner about keeping his job? is he all about making sure that he can do a deal and still be speaker? >> that's what i think. the number he's most interested in is the number of votes he has to maintain his speakership. i don't think he gives a hoot about the rest and that he would be willing to make any kind of deal that would keep him with the speakership. the truth is, though, the american people are with us. they are for raising taxes over $250,000. they want to protect their social security, their medicare, their medicaid. we have agreed to $1.6 trillion in cuts. >> so right now, it sounds like it's the president's deal or

nothing as far as democrats are concerned, because boehner has not been specific. is that a fair characterization? >> i think that's absolutely right. the president has been very firm, he's gone out to the american people who nod their head in unanimous agreement. and so i think that we just need to stick with our president and if we go to january 1, we're in even better shape. >> congresswoman jan schakowsky, we should also point out in the house races across the country, 1,165,000 people voted for democrats more than republicans. so i don't think boehner has any mandate for austerity. nuke. great to have you with us tonight. coming up, republican governors around the country are trashing obama care. but it's getting implemented whether they like it or not. up next, the details on what change means for your health care. and dick cheney is still acting like he has credibility on foreign policy and is attacking the president for ending the wars in iraq and

afghanistan. colonel lawrence wilkerson will weigh in on that later. stay with us. we'll be right back. ♪ it's so important to make someone happy ♪ when you give a child a toy, it has to work. ♪ make just one someone happy and when it's a toys for tots child, well, what could be more important? so this year, every hasbro toy donated to toys for tots will be powered by duracell. happy holidays. duracell with duralock. trusted everywhere.

welcome back to "the ed show." republican governors around the country are wasting their time, fighting obama care. even though the people voted for it twice. tennessee governor bill haslem said today his state would not be creating a state-run health insurance exchange. tennessee has now joined 20 other states refusing to participate in state-run health care exchanges. states opting out automatically default to an exchange run by the federal government. republican states don't like the exchanges. but the president said, well, wasn't even his idea. >> one of these reforms is the creation of the health insurance

exchange. this is one of the most important reforms, and by the way, originally i should point out, a republican idea. imagine that. >> these health insurance exchanges are critical. they force insurance companies to play by the same set of rules and provide a market place for people to pick and choose their health care. the result is supposed to be lower health care costs. so far, 17 states have declared state-run exchanges. six are planning a partnership exchange with the federal government. and six are undecided. these states have until this friday to inform washington of their plans. all health exchanges must be set up by january 1, 2014. meanwhile, the obama administration is pressuring states to expand medicaid coverage as outlined by obama care. the health care law calls for medicaid to be expanded to anyone who earns up to 133% of the poverty line. under the law, the federal

government would cost -- would cover the cost of new enrollment until 2016. then their share would be dropped to 90% by the year 2022. nine states have said no to expansion, despite the huge federal funding. and some states want partial expansion. but today, the administration said no way. states must expand medicaid all the way if they want to receive full obama care funding. let's turn to the former director of the office of consumer information and insurance oversight, with the health and human services department. and also msnbc contributor e.j. dion, "washington post" columnist and author of "our divided political heart." thanks for joining us tonight. jay, these health insurance ex-change, where have they important and what does it mean if states say they're not going to go down this road? >> they're important, because they enable individuals to get

together and have the bargaining power together that big businesses have. so through these exchanges, 16 million people, the estimate is, are going to be able to buy insurance. so they can go to insurance companies and say to the insurance companies, we've got the market. if you want to sell to our market, you've got to sell good products at good value at good prices. >> so these republican governors saying no to these exchanges, obviously they're protecting big insurance. >> well, they're in a tough position, because they've got two constituencies. on the one hand, the tea party people, the right wing ideologues, they want no part of obama care. on the other hand, you're right. the insurance companies want the states to run these things, because they believe correctly that the states would be softer on insurance companies and less protective of consumers than the

federal government would be. so the irony is, the federal government is going to end up running exchanges in more than half the states. and the federal government may well be more protective of consumers and make the exchanges stronger and therefore, cut costs much more than would be the case if the -- these governors themselves ran them. >> we're going to get a mixed bag. that is what this is developing to be. we'll find out if obama care works in some states and if the federal government can play a vital role on in. how do you think it's going to play out? >> i'm not in the habit of quoting former president bush, but in this case i'm almost inclined to say bring it on. for these very reasons, a lot of us wanted to have a federal exchange in the first place. i think creating one large federal exchange would create a better market place for everyone around the country. somehow republicans say they

want interstate purchasing of insurance, but they don't want a national system with decent rules that protect consumers. so i think that's quite different from the medicaid buy-in, where i think they're totally wrong. if they go down this route, they're making a terrible mistake. they're empowering the federal government to run the exchanges. >> what's the downside for a consumer in states where they reject the funding when it comes to medicaid? >> if the federal government does its job under the bill, there may not be a down side as long as the federal government organizes the exchanges. i have a hunch if some states say this is a terrible idea, we're getting pressure, we want our people to join this market oriented system, maybe they'll give them some time to develop it. but i think in the end, having a strong federal exchange could be the best thing that happens.

>> there's a difference between the exchange and the medicaid expansion. as far as medicaid is concerned, if a state decides not to expand medicaid, then that's the decision that stands and the irony is, the states which have the most uninsured people are the ones that would benefit the most. for example, texas has more uninsured people by percentage and in absolute numbers than any other state in the country. you would expect texas to be clamoring for -- to expand medicaid, especially because for the first three years, texas wouldn't even have to pay a penny. but governor perry said no, we want to continue to have the most uninsured people in the country. we're not going to expand medicaid, even if it's not going to cost us a penny. >> in your heart, is this going to work? >> yes, it is. and it's because -- it's not just poor people benefiting, but hospitals. hospitals need the money and

business realizes the medicaid expansion is good for the economy and good for business. so even though there may be nine governors who have said you're not going to expand medicaid, i believe most, if not all of them will, because the hospitals want it and because business wants it. >> i'm hoping the hospitals pressure those states to say this is a terrible idea, because it's bad for the economics of hospitals, as well as being bad for poor and lower middle income people. >> great to have both of you was tonight. thanks so much. up next, karl rove makes his return to fox news airwaves. we'll show you his big idea for the fiscal cliff.

welcome back. we love hearing from you viewers from twitter and facebook. many of you are responding to the passage of the so-called right to work law in michigan. the republican controlled house in that state backed by a republican governor. michael calls it, right-to-work, a slick law that goes against the wishes of michigan workers and got squeezed through by radical party.

marge says, it won't be a republican controlled house for long. the unions will fight back just like in illinois and wisconsin. and bob predicts rick schneider is going to be a one-term governor. coming up, dick cheney criticizes the president's handling of the wars he helped start. colonel lawrence wilkerson is here to respond.

welcome back. 27 days after karl rove made a fool of himself on fox, bush's brain is back in action. rove and dick morris were benched by fox brass after being completely wrong about the 2012 election. on monday, the fox straight news show was granted special permission to put mr. rove back on the air. rove and joe trippy were asked to give their recommendation on the fiscal cliff. >> make believe you want to get

to the compromise. >> let's cap it, itemize deductions. if you cap it at $25,000, you can lower all tax rates 20%, plus kill the alternative minimum tax forever and still have $1.3 trillion in revenue. or if you do it at $50,000 cap, it gives you $800 billion. >> oh, yes, rove is still the master of make believe. but he still must be under the impression that romney won the election. there's no way president obama and the democrats are going to lower tax rates by 20%. i've got to cut him some slack, though, it's been almost a month since he's had the opportunity to lie in public. as for dick morris, he's found something to do during his fox exile. ladies and gentlemen, the dick morris launch alert. ♪ >> don't give up. that's what we'll talk about today. there's a lot that we can do. there's a lot that we have to do in order to save this country of

ours. >> and i am so glad to see dick morris is still on his toes. next, dick cheney is up to his old tricks, attacking u.s. foreign policy and advocating for endless war. colonel lawrence wilkerson will be here to weigh in. let's just pretend for a moment that dick cheney still has credibility on foreign affairs and national security. after all, it's been a decade since cheney drummed up support for a war based on faulty intelligence. she keeps you guessing. it's part of what you love about her.

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let's just pretend for a moment that dick cheney still has credibility on foreign affairs and national security. after all, it's been a decade since cheney drummed up support for a war based on faulty intelligence. a war we would still be fighting if he were in charge. he launched his latest attack on president obama's foreign policy last week at the hudson institute, blasting the president for having the gal to bring troops home. fox news offers a few of the evening's key details. cheney was introduced by scooter libby who spoke in detail about cheney's life and accomplishments, joking how cheney flunked out of yale twice and joking about his hunting incident. cheney went right at u.s. foreign policy, letting folks know his view of the middle east hasn't changed much. >> that entire part of the world

appears to be moving in a direction that's fundamentally hostile to long-term u.s. interest. and yet we are -- seem to be unable to influence events in that part of the world. partly because we're headed for the exits and everybody knows it. >> what's cheney's solution to bringing stability to the middle east, endless war? >> we pulled out of iraq, we didn't bother to negotiate the stay behind agreement. we're well on our way out of afghanistan. and we have had a president who has been to cairo, one of the first things he did to apologize for the u.s. reaction to 9/11. alleged that we had overreacted. >> not only is cheney advocating for keeping our troops in iraq and afghanistan indefinitely but making stuff up to prove his point, as steve bennett points out. obama never said the united states overreacted to 9/11 or did he apologize for our

actions. >> 9/11 was an enormous trauma to our country. the fear and anger it provoked was understandable. but in some cases it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideas. >> dick cheney is up to his old tricks, still lobbying for endless war and lying to make his case. i'm joined by colonel lawrence wilkerson, former chief of staff at the state department and a visiting professor of government and public policy at the college of william and mary. it is amazing that dick cheney's view of the middle east hasn't changed a bit. does that surprise you? >> it doesn't surprise me. i would have thought he would have grown a little in wisdom since that time. one of the reasons the middle east is hostile to u.s. interests today is because we invaded iraq. >> he thinks we should still be there. what is your response? >> he thinks we should be there because he believes we should be

doing something about the flow, for example, of iranian arms, which is going through iraq and into syria. i would like to ask him what would we do if we were there? what would we do if we had batteries there, would we shout the planes down? >> that is the key question and point here. if we were still there right now, what would we be doing? and whose side would we be on? and would we be more aggressive towards the iranians? >> i think that's why the neocons are coming from. let's back up and say who failed to get that security agreement. that status of forces agreement that he was referring to. that was the bush administration. secretary gates, president bush, secretary of state condi rice who failed to negotiate that agreement. president obama, when he came in, did what he said he was going to do. he brought us home from iraq. were we still there under any

kind of status of forces agreement, we would only be able to do what the iraqi government allowed us to do. so the idea that we could prevent arms flows from iran into syria by our presence in iraq is ludicrous. >> what do you think of his criticism of president obama? >> i think his criticism of the president is like you said, he likes to lie. this man really likes to lie. this is a man, who after all, we have a 6,000 page select intelligence report right now on torture and enhanced interrogation techniques. this is a man who lied to the american people about the effectiveness of torture. this 6,000 page report is going to debunk that. and i know every expert i've talked to in the fbi, and in the cia, glenn carl for example told me none of this torture worked. none of this enhanced interrogation worked. it did not, as cheney has alleged, lead to the killing of

bin laden. it was counterproductive. it was damaging to our reputation and he's still lying about it. >> we haven't heard the last of that, have we? >> no, we haven't. >> how aggressive do you think lawmakers ought to be with that report? >> i think it ought to be at least portions of it, just like i thought the 9/11 commission portions of it should be made public. if we're not going to hold people accountable, we should at least let the american people know what was done in their name that basically constituted war crimes. >> getting back to cheney for a moment, his vision of international intervention, do you think that that really illustrates where the republican party is? >> i think the republican party is lost right now. wandering in the desert, as it were.